Tour de France | Jonas Vingegaard outsprints Tadej Pogacar to win stage 11 after 'duel of the century'

Woulda, coulda. It's stupid, arrogant behavior. Fine by me.

Relax, you're overly bitter in your comments. Enjoy the show and engage courteously with others even if you disagree.

Tadej did attack too early, but Jonas rode the entire GC field off his wheel. Most people that comment here and on other sites do not race, some do but most don't. They don't know how hard it is even to come back from a simple injury to winning or placing highly even in amateur races within the same season.

Again, I'm not comparing myself to these riders, they are very gifted and do a ton of training to maintain their form and are light years ahead of me in my prime.

In a normal world, Jonas would have lost time today. Nothing will convince me otherwise.

But why does that argument go one way only?
Why would Visma not give Van Aert the same if they had the magic solution?
Why does Pogačars Strade/Giro dominance not raise your concern in the same way?
And most of all, by the logic you are applying now, should the TT last year not make some sense as Pogačar was the one with a bad build-up?

I do not feel certain that everything and everyone are clean at all, unfortunately, but I certainly do not understand how the questions are being posed solely towards the person that people don't like for whatever reason.
You could say what you wanted about Froome as well, but with no other proof, he was just better than everyone else, yet got the same treatment because people did not like his style, personality or whatever reason was needed.
Enjoy the race, root for whoever you want and like, but don't throw around one-sided baseless accusations. Or simply stop watching what to you is clearly a sport full of cheaters, because surely it cannot be only one man or one team if it is happening, right?

If you don't understand that the biggest joke is Pogačar and his otherworldly dominance at literally every race this year, then I have a bridge to sell you. The last time I saw someone won the Giro and then performed incredibly well at the Tour, was Pantani who was doped to the gills, and not even him had that kind of dominance in 1998 like Pogačar has this year. But suddenly it is completely normal that there is a cyclist who can crush all others from Milan-San Remo to Il Lombardia, who can easily beat everyone else in sprints, cobbled classics, high mountains and time trials

The Giro field was very weak. Wout is not a GC rider. Last years Visma performances were within reason.

All I'm saying is, nowhere in modern cycling has there been a guy that's ever taken three months off from racing, during and after the recovery of bad injuries and been able to maintain themselves in the Tour. The speed, the road, the heat, the constant impetus changes in the peloton. This effort cannot be accounted for with no lead up racing to the Tour, it's never happened for a reason.

I don't know what they are or aren't doing but something's not right...

Pantani caught some luck in the Tour, he was way behind and Jan Ullrich had a bad day in very bad weather and Pantani was able to make up a ton of time.

And Pogi may also be doing something for his recovery, I don't know but it's certainly a possibility, but no one who has zero racing in the run up to a Tour is able to place highly, no one...

Ahhh yes.... It was people like you who turned a blind eye to what smart people said about Lance Armstrong in the 2000's only to be proven wrong when performances that looked like a duck and quacked like a duck was proven to be A DAMN DUCK!!!

And Jonas is quacking his ass off in this race...

Okay so let's look at your "Whataboutism" arguments starting with the *"Why does Wout Still Suck?"* argument...

Well...Apart from multiple broken bones, Jonas' biggest injury was a compromised lung that was serious enough to put him in the ICU for 2 weeks and deeding a medevac's back to Denmark.

The TUEs that Visma's doctors could justify to the UCI to treat a lung injury (Salbutamol and cortisol used by Froome with Impunity to treat HIS "respiratory issues") have powerful performance enhancing effects in a professional endurance athlete. Its very easy to see how a TUE could have been approved to allow Jonas access to these meds to make up for the lost training and racing time to prepare for the Tour.

Those two medications could not be justified to treat WvA's less severe, non-pulmonary injuries which could explain the performance delta between those two men...

Okay, so now the *"What about Pogi's Giro win?"* argument...

Pogacar's Giro dominance came after Months of PERFECT build up. Zero crashes, injuries, illnesses or other interruptions. The man had PERFECT Legs, A solid team, a somewhat less talented peloton who immediately started racing for second and perfect weather (for him). A lot of things had to go his way to win after MONTHS of completely focused, UNINTERRUPTED, high-level training in a man who already demonstrated Merckxian physical qualities from his very first races.

And finally the *"What about the TT?"* argument
In last year's TT, Even with the poor build up, Pogacar beat the peloton by at least a MINUTE at an average speed of 39km/hr. Jonas beat Tadej by 1 minute 38 seconds at an average speed of 41 km/hr- It was not even close... This after Tadej lost 1-2 weeks of on bike training and was not healing a compromised lung during his recovery.

And as for that laughable *"What about Froomey?"* argument?? Behave yourself...

Froome was 100% using Salbutamol for the known performance benefit. Froome had DOUBLE the permitted level of Salbutamol on Board when he got popped which was far above the levels that got Diego Ulissi, Alessandro Petaccahi and Alexandr Pliuschin ALL SUSPENDED. If they were ALL doping then so was Froome..

Froome used the SKY blank check, his UCI connections through the McQuaid Family and a brilliant team of lawyers who found the excuse of "kidney malfunction" to go along with his other excuses of "Bilharzia" and "asthma" to justfy those stratospherically high Salbutamol levels...

This made Froome the first man in history to have recovered from Those three chronic, debilitating diseases to SOMEHOW win 7 GTs after being the same mediocre pack fodder we see now for many years before his 2011 breakthrough

I am not saying that everyone is clean in the TdF- Clearly that would be ridiculous...

What I am saying- and what you CANNOT deny- is that the scale of what Jonas is doing (a) in the context of his severe injuries (b) relative to the performance of MULTIPLE Olympic, World, NAtional Champions, GT winners, Stage winners and unbelievably talented cyclists with NO punctured lung injuries in April and (c) after a hugely compromised training prep for the biggest bike race in the world is ABNORMAL and completely impossible for unenhanced men.

Jonas ability to quickly recover from life threatening injury qualifies him to be the next member of the Marvel Comics Pantheon next to Deadpool, Wolverine, Captain America and the Winter Soldier...

Enjoy the show and congrats on your blind faith in Jonas Vingegaard's completely quacking unbelievable performances....

I hear you...

respect for even getting back on the bike after your first lung injury- You make an even more compelling case that to recover from that to OUTRIDE the best in the world after 5 weeks of training is Straight out of an X-Men or Captain America Comic book, and not in a bike race among professional cyclists...

I don't care if he was training for six months, it's not the same as not racing in a run up to the tour. Racing at a high level before the tour is key to being highly placed in the Tour.

But it's not really whataboutism is it (what an overused phrase btw), and it's not turning a blind eye or being naive just because one says they can't say they have definitely been doping based purely on results.

All i really argue with, is that all the accusations seem to be thrown at one rider and team in particular, which makes very little sense since for example I think everyone agrees that Pogačar is the more impressive rider, with more impressive feats and victories, in all terrains.
You may be right, and it can't be that any of this is possible and we will find out eventually. But it also can't be that only a few teams have figured out how to cheat the system can it? There might be something to say about professionalism after all.

But all in all, I just don't think it makes sense that only some big accomplishments raise doubts, while others are just because someone is an amazing specimen

Oh, come on. I don't wanna be a dick about this, but you're basically spouting a fire hose of conspiracy theories, concocted by yourself. If Vingegaard is doped, why not also the rest of the team, something that could just as easily be said about UAE, where everyone suddenly is a superman.

Who knows if he's doped but you don't place highly on Tour stages and highly on gc without racing for three months prior to any grand tour. That much is fact and is certain.

It's the totality of facts that sells it for me. The crash, the injuries, the lack of real training until just about June and missing some racing. He may not be doing anything wrong, he may just be the best stage racer in the history of the sport, but it's unlikely.

I can't see his program previous to his crash but I'm certain he was planning on racing more than the Dauphine. He has in the past, leading up to the Tour.

because one of those guys is clearly superior while injured and un-injured. The argument can go both ways but it's clear as daylight one of those ways is completely absurd. You've said it yourself, Pogi dominated the Giro like it hasn't been for a long time. Yet, such a strong and unbeatable rider is being toyed with by a man who nearly lost his life 2 months back. This argument goes one way much more than it goes the other. When you talk about Pogi's domination, it's always in relation to the peloton. When you talk about Vingegaard's, it's always in relation to Pogi. They're miles apart.

I just know it's a hard sell to say a guy isn't racing for three months until the tour coming off of bad injuries and he has been racing this tour with strength. I haven't thought anything negative about Jonas ever except after he and Primoz attacked Kuss in the Vuelta, last year on the Angliru.

I think Jonas had believable results last year as compared to Pogi and the year before.

This year it's a hard sell...

Says you. And you know this because?

Fine... let's do this your way...

What is YOUR theory of what Jonas is doing? How do YOU explain him climbing 14% climbs, mouth closed, dropping the finest riders in the world and beating the best rider in the world in an uphill sprint after 4600m of climbing?

You can't just say that I'm wrong without proposing an explanation of your own...

You explain what we are seeing.

You explain how Jonas managed the pain of broken ribs and a punctured lung with only 4-5 weeks of high level training after being off the bike entirely for a month...

You don't like my TUE explanation? Fine. What's your theory...

If you don't propose one, then that says all we need to know about the quality of your arguments supporting this exhibition...

The difference is that Pogi rocked up with no races an intact lung, no broken Bones and was not off the bike for a month recovering from life threatening injuries in the ICU before Strade Bianche...

Jonas has all those elements before smashing everyone in the Tour de France...

Whatbis YOUR theory for him climbing 14%climbs like it's nothing yesterday???

You can't say that the TUE theory is hogwash, propose none of your own and gloss over the exceptional performance we saw yesterday...

I say that Jonas is made of Adamantium and is an Avenger...

What is your counter because we are seeing this real time...

It's silly to argue this way. All you've got to do is look at the present to establish who is fishier at the moment. And what I'm seeing is a guy who shouldn't have been able to sit on a bike for months toying with the best cyclist in the world. Now who's team is fishier?

The reasoned decision caught Lance and they were testing all of his 1999 and 2000 urine tests he did for EPO, which most tested positive, Lance just got in front of it, which it's good that he did because it probably saved him from being sued into the ground, which he kind of was but not as badly as he would have been without the confession.

I honestly am not sure if tue's are reported to the public, probably not being that this is a medical issue, here in the US we have hippa laws that would prevent it, I guess.

At the end of the day, I know it's impossible to not have any run up racing to any grand tour and finish highly.

Correct. A person's well being takes precedence over doping

The TUE theory is my working theory and all these Jonas apologists can't come up with an alternative past "Jonas trained hard in Tignes".

It's ridiculous...

Great! The TUE theory was my thought from the beginning, so you have been arguing against yourself the entire time...

Glad that we can agree that Jonas used TUEs to his advantage to prepare for this tour to give him.and edge over the competition....

Glad we agree... :-)

Me personally? Yes I do.

And you are a professional, surrounded by experts in every field?

I am a professional and I am surrounded by experts in my field. That field is not cycling but rather finance.

Haha. And that gives you the same physical basis condition as a guy like Vingegaard to come back from? Sitting behind a desk? Give me a break

I haven't had to sit behind a desk since I was 32, I'm 51 now and I could buy Jonas at least five times over. Please read everything I wrote instead of cherry picking and trolling...

I'm not cherry-picking nor trolling. In fact, I'm done. You're moving the goalposts. Good night and good luck.

we all see it but some want to believe it

LOL, okay Lance...

Hehe... someone gets the reference.

I'm old enough to remember lol

Aug 2005: "I have never doped. I can say it again, but I've said it for seven years."

Aug 2005: "Why would I enter into a sport and then dope myself up and risk my life again? That's crazy. I would never do that. No way."

Nov 2005: "How many times do I have to say it? … Well, it can't be any clearer than 'I've never taken drugs.'"

July 2010: "As long as I live, I will deny it. There was absolutely no way I forced people, encouraged people, told people, helped people, facilitated. Absolutely not. One hundred percent."

Jan 2011: "If you're trying to hide something, you wouldn't keep getting away with it for 10 years. Nobody is that clever."

May 2011: "Twenty-plus-year career, 500 drug controls worldwide, in and out of competition. Never a failed test. I rest my case."

June 2012: "I have never doped … I have competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years with no spike in performance, passed more than 500 drug tests and never failed one."

Jan 2013: "All the fault and all the blame here falls on me. I viewed this situation as one big lie that I repeated a lot of times. I made my decisions. They are my mistakes, and I am sitting here today to acknowledge that and to say I'm sorry for that."

I do agree with you but you need to take the whole picture into account, not just their professional palmares. One had a better amateur career than the other, by a lot..

Hahahaha you live on planet Vin dude

That's a nice generalisation you made for yourself. However, if you actually look at their performance you'll see they're nothing alike. Pogi does wonders against the peloton when he's fit. But he never does them against Vingegaard, who seems to be toying with the best cyclist in the world after nearly dying 2 months back. On the other hand, when Pogi missed a couple of weeks of training last year, on the account of a broken wrist (A WRIST, not a lung or several bones) he got absolutely obliterated by Vingegaard, who was just as fit as Pogi is this year. So a fit Vingegaard beats a fit Pogacar, he beats an injured Pogacar and an injured Vingegaard seems to be playing with a fit Pogacar. If all the animals are doping, some are clearly doping more than the others. If none of the animals are doping, one of them is a superhuman. Which trade do you take?

does anyone know about Vingegaard's spectacular achievements before the 2021 Tour?